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Published - Wednesday, May 07, 2008

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Star Hill decision looms

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The Holmen Village Board will have at least three offers to buy the land under the Star Hill cross/star display when it meets May 8, including one bid of 12 times the value of the property.

The American Humanist Association based in Washington, D.C., sent an offer to buy the land for $1,000 and included a check for the full amount. The Madison-based Freedom from Religion Foundation topped that with a bid of $1,200.

The Holmen Lions Club discussed purchase of the property at its April 21 meeting, but club President Scott Marshall refused to divulge details.

“That information is not public at this time,” Marshall said. “I can’t comment on it.”

The Village Board’s Finance and Personnel Committee will have first crack at the issue at its meeting May 5. The committee is expected to discuss the matter in closed session before voting in open session on a recommendation to the full board.

The board has been moving toward selling the land as a way to avoid litigation since shortly after a Holmen resident lodged a complaint about the lighted cross display in early March. For five years, the village has owned the blufftop land on which the 40-foot cross stands, and Eric Barnes, an assistant physics professor at the UW-La Crosse, asserted that amounts to government endorsement of Christianity, violating the doctrine of separation of church and state.

Rather than get involved in protracted and expensive litigation over the separation of church and state issue, the board looked instead to sell the property to the Lions Club, which was involved in erecting the structure in 1960.

A village-ordered appraisal of the patch of land on which the cross/star sits valued the property at $100.

Even if the Lions Club submits a bid of only $100, the village wouldn’t be required by law to sell the land to the Freedom From Religion Foundation by virtue of its high bid, said Cheryl Gill, an attorney with Johns, Flaherty and Collins, SC, a La Crosse-based law firm.

“There’s no statutory limitation on that power,” she said.

Municipalities are not required to take bids when they sell public property, Gill said, but if the village turns down a $1,200 offer in favor of a $100 offer, “that might be considered an abuse of discretion.”

A taxpayer could bring suit over such an abuse of discretion, but that would be the only way to challenge the village’s decision, Gill said.

Repeated phone messages and e-mails to Village Administrator Catherine Schmit produced no response. Village President John Chapman said he’d “rather not comment” on the Star Hill issue.

“I’m just reluctant to make any comments because it’s such a contentious issue,” Chapman said.

Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, said she had a difficult time dealing with village officials while trying to submit the group’s bid. For example, the address of the Star Hill property was required for the bid document, but she got nowhere by calling.

“They are very, very unhelpful,” Gaylor said. “Nobody would give it to me over the phone. Nobody was there who knew anything.”

The Lions Club has made no secret of its intent in buying the property — to preserve the star and cross display — and neither do the FFRF and the AHA. Both say they would remove the cross display, with Gaylor saying the star would go, too.

“We would take them down, and maybe we could sell them to somebody,” Gaylor said.

AHA spokesman Fred Edwords said the cross would be taken down but that the group would consider keeping up the star if it was lit year around and not just at Christmas time.

“If they sell it to us, then we will take possession of the land and look at the situation and see how best we can remove the religious monument while maintaining the star. We want to have the least impact on the village,” Edwords said. “Our end purpose is merely to make it clear that religious symbols belong on private and church property. The cross in our view, because it’s a religious symbol, is never appropriate. ... Its position looks for all the world like a public endorsement on public property.”

Bob Ritter, an attorney for AHA, said the $100 appraisal might be a fair price for the amount of land involved, but that appraisal doesn’t include the star/cross monument. Not including that, he said, is like appraising a residential lot without including the value of the house on it.

Putting a value on such a longstanding landmark might be difficult, Ritter said, but one way to do it would be to take bids on the property.

Ritter also said he takes issue with the Holmen Lions Club’s endorsement of one religion. The Lions Club International policy states that the organization is secular. Ritter called the national Lions Club office to try to find out whether the national organization would take any action against the Holmen club but did not hear back.

“I don’t think they’re interested in talking to us,” Ritter said.

The problem with both the Holmen government and the Lions Club endorsement of a particular religion, Ritter said, is the message of exclusion it communicates to non-Christians.

“The government says, ‘The Christians are welcome but for the others, who are you?’” Ritter said. “The harm perhaps is hard to recognize.”

Both Ritter and Gaylor said litigation is a possibility if the Lions Club wins possession of the land with a lower bid. But Ritter said even if the challenge went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, it still wouldn’t settle the controversy over the doctrine of separation of church and state.

“There will not be a definitive ruling,” Ritter said. “What we will get is a shifting of the line.”

The only way to get a definitive answer, he said, would be to pass another amendment to the Constitution.

Contact Randy Erickson at randy.erickson@lee.net or (608) 786-6812.
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To Thanks for... wrote on May 9, 2008 8:53 AM:

" The Constitution does not prohibit religious displays on public land. So, good luck to anyone that files suit. BTW, if any lawsuit is filed, the Village will have to pay for nothing. Liberty Council will defend the Village for free. "

To To Wakeup wrote on May 8, 2008 1:14 PM:

" Most educated people in this country disagree with you. Maybe it is you who are brainwashed. "

Thanks for nothing Trustees wrote on May 8, 2008 12:50 PM:

" Congratulations Holmen, by going ahead with this sale you have just guaranteed a lawsuit that us residents will have to pay for. Choosing to not light the cross would have been such a simple fix, now we will have to pay for this ridiculous, gawdy, unconstitutionally displayed symbol. Thanks. Those of us in Holmen who appreciate common sense and fiscal responsibility in our Village board will be sure to watch who votes to sell this land to the Lions club, and we will make sure you are not re-elected. "

TO Wakeup wrote on May 8, 2008 11:59 AM:

" Wow you are completely brainwashed. If heaven is full of schmucks like you I don't want to go there. The bible is a farce. "

TO May AM wrote on May 8, 2008 11:56 AM:

" Most educated people in the world are Muslim. "

To To Wakeup wrote on May 8, 2008 8:30 AM:

" Most educated people(college degree or higher) in this country are Christians. I wouldn't worry about reading or getting educated. "

ToWakeup wrote on May 7, 2008 9:05 PM:

" Wake up! Read...research...get educated! "

Wakeup wrote on May 7, 2008 5:30 PM:

" Non-Christians will go to Hell! You don't have to though. Repent (change your mind about) sin, recognize that because of your sins, your are condemned to Hell. However, IF you can place all your faith in Jesus (and Jesus alone!), God will consider you innocent because of Jesus' sacrifice on the CROSS! "

To Bill O Rights wrote on May 6, 2008 8:38 AM:

" You appear ignorant of what the First Amendment says. There is nothing "wrong" about the Star and Cross. There is no law establishing a religion, nor is there a law preventing free exercise thereof. See 5/2 6:58pm post. "

TO Thomas Jefferson and Kenneth Krause wrote on May 6, 2008 7:25 AM:

" WOW what an annoying couple of people. Thomas Jefferson you come across as a pompus a**. "

ToKeep our cross and star wrote on May 6, 2008 6:04 AM:

" Advice: Read, travel, expand your mind...grade school/gang tactics you advocate there...'in your face with the cross'...God would be so proud! Aren't you just the spiritual one. God would just love to see everyone divided and putting up junk in their yard. Common...think about what you're saying... "

Bill O Rights wrote on May 5, 2008 6:19 PM:

" Why? Because they realize that the 1st Amendment protects both ways. Most of the clergy know that the whole cross situation is wrong but they are afraid to say so because it would cause a rift in their congregation that might be so bad that it could cause the clery member to lose their job. If you don't believe this, call up a few and try to have an objective conversation with them on the subject. "

Keep our Cross and Star wrote on May 5, 2008 1:47 PM:

" "In God We Trust" is written on our money". I wonder if the people who object so diligently against the cross and star use money? I would like to see every one who is in favor of the cross and star remaining to put up a cross in their yard to support this issue. We have a lot of homes in Holmen, we need to start doing something. Two pieces of wood which more every homeowner can find and nail in the middle and put it on their property for all to see. Let us not give in to the minority. If it comes down to money let's start a fund, I would gladly put in the first $100.00 and I live in Holland Township. We also need local Church support; so many clergy are so afraid of taking a position on this issue. WHY? "

To Thomas Jefferson and Kenneth Krause wrote on May 5, 2008 12:10 PM:

" Enough already. Why not e-mail each other privately?? "

To Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 5, 2008 10:28 AM:

" Also, I wanted to thank you for acknowledging that neither Congress nor the Village of Holmen violated the Constitution(in your 5/3 11:25pm post).This is what I was trying to get at all along, that there is no Constitutional violation, and that the Supreme Court has been in error. Now, maybe we can move forward. There is some funny circular reasoning you touch on ("The Supreme Court" decided that we operate under the law as interpreted by "The Supreme Court"). Now, they are trying to make "interpret" synonymous with "change". Funny stuff. "

Kenneth W Krause to Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 5, 2008 8:34 AM:

" You state "In some microscopic fashion, you are absolutely correct." Well, Thomas, the "microscopic fashion" you refer to happens to be our Constitution. That is what this entire discussion is about. If our founding fathers had chosen to prohibit religious symbols in public, they could have easily done so. They chose not to. Sorry you don't like it, but(like my momma always used to say), "sometimes it just beez that way." "

To Thomas jefferson wrote on May 4, 2008 1:08 PM:

" Thank you for the correction regarding the council/counsel thing. You are absolutely correct. You are mistaken regarding your other points, however. As stated countless times on these boards, I am not the only one who ignores irrelevant Supreme Court rulings. Many cities and communities have and still are. And, they are usually victorious if sued. I am sorry you disagree, but if I were to take their incorrect decisions into consideration, I would be starting with a faulty premise and working from there. That is not the best way to get an answer. If you are alleging unconstitutionality, I will go to the Constitution. You told someone on another post "we can disagree, but at least keep the arguements coherent." You try to do the same. We are discussing the Constitution-not opinions which may or may not be wrong. "

Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 3, 2008 11:25 PM:

" Oh and that 'making a law' thing. In some microscopic fashion, you are absolutely correct. If we are to read only the letter of the Constitution, then Congress DIDN'T make any laws...and neither did Holmen. But you see, our country since 1803 with Madison v. Marbury was DECIDED by the United States Supreme Court operates under the law as interpreted by the Supreme Court. And if you choose to ignore the Supreme Court, well go ahead. Have a great time. But that ISN'T how our nation operates. Just you.

So forget about YOUR interpretation of the United States Constitution. Spend a little time reading about how the United States Supreme Court has interpreted the Constitution and then discuss from that point.

Even if you don't like what they have DECIDED, you might wish to take their DECISIONS into consideration. The rest of us do you know. "

Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 3, 2008 11:21 PM:

" Why should Holmen officials be 'helpful' to someone who is threatening to sue them? Perhaps, let me make a wild stab at an answer....perhaps to avoid a lawsuit? Or maybe perhaps because they were selling some property and they should be helpful to every party that might wish to purchase it?

Or was the FFRF just getting in the way of the dirty little deed the Village was trying to do? Maybe the Annie Gaylor was highlighting the joke that the sale was. That this wasn't really a sale at all. It was a sham. And why didn't she just 'get' the joke?

So yes. Our public employees, our civil servants, should be helpful and courteous to everyone they deal with. Even if they are threatening a lawsuit. And maybe perhaps it would be wise ESPECIALLY if there might be a lawsuit involved. Seems sort of obvious to me. "

Lois Henderson wrote on May 3, 2008 10:51 PM:

" Enough already with all the controversy about the cross/star. If people don't like it simply don't look at it!!! Hey how about a nice "smiley face" on the hill..........Maybe that would be agreeable to all and bring people together again. "

Bill ORights wrote on May 3, 2008 10:07 PM:

" The amount of ignorance of the Constitution and its application displayed by many of the posters who are defending the location of the cross is sad. What is even more dismaying is that, apparently, the majority of the Board of Trustees and the leaders of the Lion's Club have the same distorted views of the way one set of religious beliefs should be forced onto the whole community. "

Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 3, 2008 9:02 PM:

" I would like to do all of you right-wingers a favor. Let me point out that the organization you continually refer to is not "Liberty Council". I am not sure what legal group that might be. I suspect that you all are referring to "Liberty Counsel". The 'counsel' part refers to legal counsel, as in an attorney. The 'council' you all mis-refer to is of course related to a group of people who meet together as in City Council.

I hope to continue this educational process with you all and educate you about the part of the Constitution called the "First Amendment". There is a bit of confusion continuing to fog the thinking of some of the posters here regarding this matter. "

To Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 3, 2008 5:18 PM:

" You are totally missing the point. There is a difference between being impolite and simply not being helpful. Why should the city(or anyone) help someone who is threatening to sue them? Also, there is no First Amendment violation regarding entanglement with religion. That sounds like something you made up. The only thing the First Amendment(or the 14th) would prohibit would be the city making a law establishing religion. It did not do that, so the city is within its legal rights to 1)not sell the land and keep the cross 2) not sell the land and remove the cross 3)Sell the land to whomever they wish to at whatever price they wish. Any of these options are legal and acceptable. You may feel one and three are inappropriate, and that is fine. But, it is only your opinion. It is not addressed by the First Amendment as you claim. "

Thomas Jefferson to pm wrote on May 3, 2008 8:48 AM:

" I agree with you that the purpose of the sale of the land to the Lions was to avoid litigation. However, all that was needed to avoid a lawsuit was the sale of the land. The reason the Lions were the designated purchaser was to insure that the Cross would stay JUST AS IT WAS. (I added the emphasis). Thus you are right again. Annie Gaylor and the FFRF were being given a hard time because there never was any true desire to sell it to ANYONE. And the low $100 price? Do you really believe that Holmen couldn't have sold it to Collins Sign for more? What a great place for a billboard!

My point is that the sale was a SHAM. That is, it wasn't really a "sale" at all. It was a 'hand-off' to the Lions to insure that the Cross would continue. THAT is the problem. The City of Holmen should not be acting to either HAVE a Cross on public property nor should it make transactions to ensure its placement there. That is the 1st Amendment violation regarding entanglement with religion.

The City should always be polite and appropriate to anyone seeking to enter into a transaction with it. "

To Bill O Rights wrote on May 2, 2008 6:58 PM:

" That is merely your opinion that the cross should be kept off public land. If you want a law to that effect, do what you are supposed to-by democracy. Petition your Senator and Congressman to make a law prohibiting public displays of crosses. Don't just whine about it here. "

To Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 2, 2008 6:55 PM:

" I don't think anyone ever disputed that the purpose of the sale to the Lions was to avoid possible litigation. Therefore, selling the land to someone else would defeat the whole purpose. For someone to expect assistancefrom the city in doing this is pure stupidity. Kenneth Krause rightfully states the city should have gotten free legal representation from Liberty Council, and they likely would have prevailed in court. But, since they didn't, they have every right to sell to who they wish for whatever price they wish. Also, re Annie Gaylor: have you ever seen the woman speak? For crying out loud, she sounds crazy, no matter what she is talking about. She is a disaster as a spokesperson. "

Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 2, 2008 6:35 PM:

" Bill O',

This is not the place to debate the worthiness of religious views. We shall all be better to simply ask each individual to respect the next and to guarantee that each person has the right to observe their faith without government interference. We can do that while still demanding that they refrain from interfering and injecting their religious views into government whether it be through the laws or via monuments to their religions.

That is the essence of the 1st Amendment. Not a condemnation of any religious view, but rather a statement of respect both of those views as well as the rights of all citizens to have a government free from the shackles of religiosity.

"

Bill ORights wrote on May 2, 2008 4:44 PM:

" For those who use the word "Christian":

Are you the kind of Christian that believes the Pope is the Anti-Christ or the kind that thinks the Pope is infallible in matters of morality? The kind of Christian who believes the Bible is the word of God and is inerrantly true in every way or the kind who thinks it stories written by men? The kind of Christian who believes that females MUST submit to the will of males or the kind that thinks all humans are equal in all respects? etc. etc. etc.

All of these various "Christian" beliefs/groups can not be correct. Over the centuries these differences resulted in killing, among individuals, among sects and among countries. That is why it is essential that things like the cross have to be kept off public land and places where it would be perceived as being on public land. The cross belongs on a church, not on a hill overlooking the entire area.

"

TMK wrote on May 2, 2008 2:44 PM:

" All the citizens of Holmen that want the cross to stay should set up a fundraising drive for the Lions so they can up their bid right before the decision day. That way the cross stays. I graduated from Holmen High in 1977 and do go to Holmen at times. I would greatly miss its shining beacon. "

Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 2, 2008 1:16 PM:

" Regarding Annie Gaylor, certainly others seeking to purchase the parcel in question in Holmen should expect help. Are you nuts? Unless the sale to the Lions is a SHAM. That is, a fake sale designed to hand-off the parcel ONLY to the LIONS and that the sale is just a big JOKE. Then any other person should expect the service, assistance, and yes help from elected officials who are sworn to uphold the United States Constitution. And that includes not discriminating in the transactions of official business.

Annie Gaylor, while I may not completely agree with her political views, is a lady, and an intelligent woman at that. "

Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 2, 2008 1:13 PM:

" Truth,

Let's be honest. If the City of Holmen lights up a cross, pays for it, keeps it on public property, what else CAN we infer than it "favors Christianity"? You can argue that the City SHOULD favor Christianity---I would disagree---but let's be at least honest.

Your naivete continues when you comment on "In God we Trust" as somehow meaning an endorsement of Christianity. Do you really believe that the only God is a Christian God? And that that view is the only one held by Americans? We have many different religions, including non-Christian religions that worship and believe in God, if you haven't noticed. This is certainly an endorsement of God against 'no God', but it is a stretch to somehow say that this is proof of prior endorsements of Christianity.

Let's keep the arguments coherent. We can disagree but let's try to sort out the nonsense. "

Response to The Star wrote on May 2, 2008 12:26 PM:

" The star is lit year round, not just at Christmas time. If you lived here, you'd see it each night. "

Truth wrote on May 2, 2008 9:09 AM:

" Just because a cross is paid for by the Village does not mean that they are favoring Christianity. The Federal government, state government, and all branches of government have ties to Christianity. Look no further than your money. You will see "In God We Trust". God forbid (pun not intended) you folks ever take a trip to Washington DC. Sometimes you think you have just entered the Vatican.

The bottom line is, some guy came to Holmen and stirred up a controversy. Nobody said crap for 50 years, because even the non-religious people respected the traditional value of that star/cross. "

Kenneth W Krause to Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 2, 2008 8:37 AM:

" I believe you are being dishonest when you claim that I have never explained why the Supreme Court rulings are in error and irrelevant. I have done so many times. Thomas, when a claim is made that something is unconstitutional, OF COURSE I am going to search the Constitution. Isn't that the logical thing to do? The Supreme Court decisions are wrong for the following reason: The Constitution does not prohibit public displays of religious symbols. It simply isn't there. That means the Supreme Court decisions that state religious symbols are unconstitutional are in error and irrelevant. The Supreme Court is not in charge of making new law. When they do so, they are overstepping their authority. How much more clear can I be? "

The Star wrote on May 2, 2008 8:31 AM:

" After reading how Holmen residents feel the star is a representation of the Village, I was quite surprised to learn that it is only at Christmas time. Why is that? If the star is such a part of Holmen why don't you light it year round? "

Thomas Jefferson wrote on May 1, 2008 10:52 PM:

" Kenneth,

The purpose of separating church from state is to protect the religious freedom of every American, not just the Americans who happen to belong to the majority faith.

You keep searching in the Constitution and ignoring Supreme Court rulings that apply. You dismiss them summarily as "wrong" and do not ever explain why. You claim that other municipalities have succeeded in defending themselves against challenges of religious objects in the public space. Has anyone ever won a decision in court to preserve a Cross on public land? Please provide details.

And why should we be more concerned about lower court rulings when you dismiss the Supreme Court rulings themselves as irrelevant and wrong. "

Village Resident wrote on May 1, 2008 10:22 PM:

" The village staff is not doing itself any favors by not providing good customer service and answer questions - requests posed to them. I am offended that they would treat anyone differently. As a member of the village I expect them to be curtious to all as that is their job. I don't support the FFR group but I expect that they be treated appropriately. John - I have heard this is the case in other situations, if you don't agree with the direction of the village government you are not treated well. Please tell me this isn't really the case. "

Straw Man wrote on May 1, 2008 5:47 PM:

" The separation of church and state protects religious freedom instead of detracting from it...just look at Putin's Russia--they have all but declared the Eastern Orthodox Church as THE state church. Besides, it's the law here in our country. .... ....

Suppose Utah banned all religions in that state but Mormonism? Suppose Boston, with its large Irish Catholic population, declared its allegiance to the Vatican? Suppose Dearborn, Michigan, with its large Arab population, put up a Muslim crescent on city land? Then the same folks who want the Holmen cross would rightly cry foul. Holmen officials knowingly put up that cross as an expression of favoritism toward their PERSONAL religion! "

From the editor wrote on May 1, 2008 5:26 PM:

" A question has been asked by a frequent poster about why some comments have not been posted. The reason is dishonesty.

Although I cannot necessarily tell the identity of somebody posting a comment, I can tell from which computer it is coming. When I see a comment posted from a computer, followed immediately by another post from the same computer under another name saying what a great point the previous comment was, I see that as dishonest. That person maybe is trying to make it seem like more people agree with his point of view.

I'd rather not have that kind of thing, so let's keep it real.

Randy


"

Re Annie Gaylor wrote on May 1, 2008 4:37 PM:

" "They are very, very unhelpful." I am dying here...my sides hurt from laughing. Is she serious. She expects help?! Several years ago, Lee Strobel hosted a television show called "Faith Under Fire." It was a great show. He would invite people of different religious backgrounds and no religious background to discuss all kinds of faith-related topics. Well, Annie was on one show and she completely made a fool of herself. I don't care what you believe, this group needs to get a new spokesperson. Now this comment? What a disaster. "

Kenneth W Krause wrote on May 1, 2008 4:14 PM:

" I guess not a lot can be said that hasn't been said already. The last sentence of the article touches on something interesting. A Constitutional Amendment would require an act by our Legislature, which are how laws are supposed to be made. The Supreme Court is not supposed to make laws. There is no separation of state. There is nothing in the Constitution and there are no laws against public displays of religious symbols. If people want that to change, they need to do so through their elected representatives-not the courts. Not sure why Holmen wanted to avoid litigation, especially since Liberty Council would have defended them free of charge. Other communities have won similar cases. It would have cost nothing, and it seems it would have been less of a hassle than what is going on now. "


The comments above are from readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Holmen Courier.

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